tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post2663357614307338395..comments2023-11-05T03:45:25.001-08:00Comments on God Plays Dice: "Torsion" as an adjectiveMichael Lugohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15671307315028242949noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-1789684364959233812008-06-14T09:52:00.000-07:002008-06-14T09:52:00.000-07:00Emmanuel,that's a good point, that what sounds a b...Emmanuel,<BR/><BR/>that's a good point, that what sounds a bit off to me as a native speaker of English might be reflecting the workings of some other language.<BR/><BR/>The person I associate with the use of "torsion" as an adjective is a Romanian who was trained in Germany.Michael Lugohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671307315028242949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-16347867460190948582008-06-14T09:40:00.000-07:002008-06-14T09:40:00.000-07:00My professors at Berkeley also used the "Let X be ...My professors at Berkeley also used the "Let X be torsion" construction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-18294196290760583652008-06-13T10:21:00.000-07:002008-06-13T10:21:00.000-07:00P.S. I forgot to mention that, maybe not coinciden...P.S. I forgot to mention that, maybe not coincidentally, the preprint mentioned in the comment before mine is by a French mathematician.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-89644626001380561652008-06-13T10:17:00.000-07:002008-06-13T10:17:00.000-07:00It would be helpful to know if "torsion" came orig...It would be helpful to know if "torsion" came originally into English mathematical usage from another language. For instance, in French, one definitely says very naturally "soit G un groupe de torsion", or one can conclude an argument with "et donc G est de torsion".<BR/><BR/>A French writer, knowing how this type of construction "un X de Y" often translates into "a Y X" into English, would then assume that the most natural translations in English are "let G be a torsion group", and "and hence G is torsion"...<BR/><BR/>The exact same thing happens with Cauchy sequences: in French, one speaks of "une suite de Cauchy", and can write "et donc (u_n) est de Cauchy", which it seems natural to translate as "a Cauchy sequence" and "and hence (u_n) is Cauchy". Whether this is good English is of course another question...<BR/><BR/>(Incidentally, about Cauchy, in analytic number theory, "to Cauchy" is a verb, meaning "to apply Cauchy's inequality" to some well-chosen sum...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-71931807629665358082008-06-12T18:43:00.000-07:002008-06-12T18:43:00.000-07:00I've definitely heard folks use "torsion" as an ad...I've definitely heard folks use "torsion" as an adjective before. I think it is probably a reasonably common usage. I was just reading a paper just posted on the preprint arxiv that uses the term in this way:<BR/><BR/>http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.2068Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-50012550535412468522008-06-12T14:02:00.000-07:002008-06-12T14:02:00.000-07:00I'm of the philosophy that if you're going to writ...I'm of the philosophy that if you're going to write something other people are going to read, you should just do it right. Thus "Let U be an open subset of X" and "Let G be a torsion abelian group". I mean, are keystrokes so valuable that you want to save them? (And I would only use the word torsion for abelian groups.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-19444388976248401042008-06-12T08:58:00.000-07:002008-06-12T08:58:00.000-07:00what grates *my* ear most isadjectival forms of *p...what grates *my* ear most is<BR/>adjectival forms of *proper* nouns:<BR/>can a sequence be cauchy?<BR/><BR/>for me, yes ... *informally*.<BR/>i'd prefer to avoid *writing*<BR/>"let G be torsion" *or* (especially) <BR/>"let S be cauchy".<BR/><BR/>(for that matter, can a threat be death?<BR/>can a note be suicide?)<BR/><BR/>i first became aware of this<BR/>kind of thing, if memory serves,<BR/>in 7th grade ... environmentalism<BR/>was starting to catch on (still<BR/>known as "conservation" in those days)<BR/>and some teacher told us about<BR/>"air pollution" and "water pollution"<BR/>... and "noise pollution".<BR/>well, doggone it (sez i),<BR/>it's the *air* and the *water*<BR/>that get polluted on the one hand,<BR/>but surely it can't be the *noise*<BR/>that's getting polluted on the other.<BR/><BR/>the thing is, it *sounded really stupid*.<BR/>so i was doggoned it i'd say it.<BR/>somebody (joe kenny; i haven't seen<BR/>him since that year, alas) soon<BR/>pointed out that on my model,<BR/>one would allow "blood poisoning"<BR/>but forbid "lead poisoning" ...<BR/>and i had to admit that i *didn't*<BR/>object to "lead poisoning".<BR/>(consistency and usage don't mix.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-46496208101026092012008-06-12T06:57:00.000-07:002008-06-12T06:57:00.000-07:00Put my vote in the "not awkward to say 'Let G be t...Put my vote in the "not awkward to say 'Let G be torsion'" camp. To me it stems quite naturally out of talking about G-torsion (meaning the part of G that has finite order).<BR/><BR/>dD.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17996646462629023543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-62597515546494301092008-06-11T19:22:00.000-07:002008-06-11T19:22:00.000-07:00I'd say "torsion" by itself is a noun, and it does...I'd say "torsion" by itself is a noun, and it does sound awkward using it as an adjective. There are plenty of instances in the English language where we use a noun as a modifier for another noun, but you wouldn't use the same noun as an adjective outside of the phrase.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, in mathematics we have several cases where a person's name is used as an adjective; for example, a sequence can be Cauchy. Sounds awkward to me, but I also think it must be a pretty high honor to have one's name not only attached to a theorem or concept, but also used as an adjective. (The only thing better would be to have it uncapitalized, as in "abelian".)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-12929712186209087172008-06-11T18:21:00.001-07:002008-06-11T18:21:00.001-07:00I don't know about people; it might just be person...I don't know about <I>people</I>; it might just be <I>person</I>.Michael Lugohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671307315028242949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-16957718593571050122008-06-11T18:21:00.000-07:002008-06-11T18:21:00.000-07:00Do people really talk about nonabelian groups bein...Do people really talk about nonabelian groups being torsion? It's a bit awkward having ``torsion part'' (elements of finite order) not being a subgroup.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-66627014445093104992008-06-11T18:18:00.000-07:002008-06-11T18:18:00.000-07:00"Torsion" as a noun seems more reasonable to me, b..."Torsion" as a noun seems more reasonable to me, because "torsion" is a noun in ordinary (non-mathematical) English.Michael Lugohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671307315028242949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-264226589944705290.post-81672227962312290512008-06-11T18:17:00.000-07:002008-06-11T18:17:00.000-07:00It doesn't seem weird at all to me. After all, wh...It doesn't seem weird at all to me. After all, when you say "let U be open", what you mean is "let U be an open set". I don't see the difference between that and the case of torsion.<BR/><BR/>That reminds me--I've read plenty of instances of the phrase "in the torsion case".<BR/><BR/><BR/>How do you feel about using torsion as a noun, as in "If there is torsion in H_2. . ."?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com